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Old 01-17-2007, 12:00 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by BigBuddhaPup View Post
The problem with the Patriot Act is it exceeds its logical parameters... it can spy on any American for no reason, any American can be arrested for no reason and held for indeterminable amount of time... how about civil liberties?
Indeed... what of the "civil liberties" for the folks in the Pentagon and in the World Trade Center on the morning of 09/11/01?

There has to be trade-offs in order for the government to provide Homeland Security and anti-terrorism security. Simply handicapping the government then expecting it to do its job is not possible...

Do you scream "civil liberties" when you pass through airport checkpoints?
Do you scream "civil liberties" when your ISP information is collected at web sites?
Do you scream "civil liberties" when a policeman pulls you over on the road?
Do you scream "civil liberties" when Google Aerial photography maps your backyard?

There are many examples of local, state, and federal intrusion in the life of ordinary Americans... if you are concerned about the Patriot Act, you would have a real heart attack when you learn how much data the average credit card company can acquire on free citizens...."civil liberties"?

Citizens of America enjoy more freedoms than any other residents on the earth; the Constitution sets up concrete guarantees for all. The Patriot Act, in this time of war, allows the government to do its anti-terrorism function.
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:18 PM   #122
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This is not part of the Patriot Act. It is part of the war on drugs. If the Patriot Act got this drug problem fixed, fine.
What is your problem with stopping the manufacture of drugs?
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Old 01-17-2007, 01:37 PM   #123
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The problem is they are doing it illegally. I know you would never think that the government breaks the rules, but the Patriot Act is without doubt illegal. Wire tapping without a warrant is illegal. Bush has decided that he doesn't need to follow the rules that every other president followed in terms of infringing on individuals' rights.
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:33 AM   #124
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... but the Patriot Act is without doubt illegal...
Without doubt?

No pleasing you folks...

Hijacking and ramming planes into buildings "illegal" or don't you care?
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:34 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by IntheNet View Post
Indeed... what of the "civil liberties" for the folks in the Pentagon and in the World Trade Center on the morning of 09/11/01?

There has to be trade-offs in order for the government to provide Homeland Security and anti-terrorism security. Simply handicapping the government then expecting it to do its job is not possible...

Do you scream "civil liberties" when you pass through airport checkpoints?
Do you scream "civil liberties" when your ISP information is collected at web sites?
Do you scream "civil liberties" when a policeman pulls you over on the road?
Do you scream "civil liberties" when Google Aerial photography maps your backyard?

There are many examples of local, state, and federal intrusion in the life of ordinary Americans... if you are concerned about the Patriot Act, you would have a real heart attack when you learn how much data the average credit card company can acquire on free citizens...."civil liberties"?

Citizens of America enjoy more freedoms than any other residents on the earth; the Constitution sets up concrete guarantees for all. The Patriot Act, in this time of war, allows the government to do its anti-terrorism function.

Ooh, the emotional side... and if we don't keep this law, then little puppies and children will die too...

Those aren't the examples I discussed earlier...

My discussion was the suspension of habeaus corpeus, the suspension of Miranda rights, the suspension of FISA court rulings(I think GW is waffling on this one at least).... It doesn't bother you in the least that our gov't can swoop you up, with no charges, and keep you indefinitely in prison with no trial at all?... I have no issue with our country going after criminals, but we have to have a system in place, we are a country of laws, and we have to follow laws, or we are not any better than the criminals.... USA Patriot Act, might have been well intentioned, but it has stepped past it bounds, it needs to be revised, there has to be a balance... lets get the criminals, but in the same turn all people should be able to know why they are imprisoned, and the right to a trial...
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:37 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by IntheNet View Post
Without doubt?

No pleasing you folks...

Hijacking and ramming planes into buildings "illegal" or don't you care?

We aren't looking for you to please us... that would futile...

Just because terrorism occurs in this world doesn't make it okay to enforce unconstitutional laws...

Of course we care, everyone cares... how dare you?... oh, I forgot... nvm...
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Old 01-18-2007, 06:02 PM   #127
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
-- Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945



Couple Patriot Act examples:


--Secretly search the home of Brandon Mayfield, a Muslim attorney whom the government wrongly suspected, accused and detained as a perpetrator of the Madrid train bombings;

--Serve a National Security Letter (NSL) on an Internet Service Provider (ISP) so coercive under the terms prescribed by the statute that a federal court struck down the entire statute - as vastly expanded by the Patriot Act - used to obtain information about e-mail activity and web surfing for intelligence investigations;

--Gag that ISP from disclosing this abuse to the public, and gag the ACLU itself, which represents the ISP, from disclosing this abuse to the public when the ACLU became aware of it, and from disclosing important circumstances relating to this abuse and other possible abuses of the gag, even to this very day;

--Charge, detain, and prosecute a Muslim student in Idaho, Sami al-Hussayen, for providing "material support" to terrorists because he posted to an Internet website links to objectionable materials, even though such links were available on the websites of the government's own expert witness in the case and on the website of a major news outlet;

--Deny, on account of his political beliefs, admission to the United States of a Swiss national, Tariq Ramadan, a prominent Muslim scholar who was to assume a teaching position at Notre Dame University; and

--Investigate and prosecute crimes that are not terrorism offenses, even though it cited terrorism prevention as the reason Congress should enact the law, and cites terrorism prevention as the reason why it cannot be changed.


------------

We need to keep ourselves safe from terrorism, but if we throw our Constitution away to do so, then they have beaten us... the US now tortures people in the name of terrorism, it detains people with no probable cause or formal charges in the name of terrorism, it spies on us in the name of terrorism...

That is truly un-American.
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Old 01-18-2007, 06:29 PM   #128
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I'm sure catman will argue that Ben Franklin was a terrorists.

"If you're against this war you are supporting the enemy and you're unAmerican!"

Well, apparently the majority of this country is unAmerican, Ben Franklin is a terrorists, and George W. Bush is on level with Einstein.

Is this backwards, or is it just me?
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Old 01-18-2007, 06:30 PM   #129
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We need to keep ourselves safe from terrorism, but if we throw our Constitution away to do so, then they have beaten us... the US now tortures people in the name of terrorism, it detains people with no probable cause or formal charges in the name of terrorism, it spies on us in the name of terrorism...

Well said my man. It's a shame that too many people can't see that.
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Old 01-18-2007, 06:48 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
I'm sure catman will argue that Ben Franklin was a terrorists.

"If you're against this war you are supporting the enemy and you're unAmerican!"

Well, apparently the majority of this country is unAmerican, Ben Franklin is a terrorists, and George W. Bush is on level with Einstein.

Is this backwards, or is it just me?
Anything to bash this President, right Fresh? I would rather think that George W. Bush was on the level with Einstein as opposed to you, if your current level of responses is any indication of your true intellect.
Ben Franklin was considered a terrorist to some, a patriot to others. He was a "nationalist" that wanted to throw foreign rulers and soldiers out of his country. That is the difference between what is going on now and what was going on then. The soldiers attempting to remove the duly elected Government of Iraq are, for the most part, foreign soldiers. The Rulers are local people.
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:02 PM   #131
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catman...

And your answer addresses the many injustices as listed by cure how...?

You say the Patriot Act is just fine. At least admit that it infringes on the rights of innocent people. Argue that it is a necessary evil in the war on terror. But don't lie and say, "only guilty people have something to fear." It's just not true. Many innocent people have been detained without trial because of the Patriot Act. We are beginning to act more like those we are fighting, instead of separating ourselves and proving we are better.
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:36 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
Anything to bash this President, right Fresh? I would rather think that George W. Bush was on the level with Einstein as opposed to you, if your current level of responses is any indication of your true intellect.
Ben Franklin was considered a terrorist to some, a patriot to others. He was a "nationalist" that wanted to throw foreign rulers and soldiers out of his country. That is the difference between what is going on now and what was going on then. The soldiers attempting to remove the duly elected Government of Iraq are, for the most part, foreign soldiers. The Rulers are local people.

Political relativism...:lol:

It doesn't take just anything to bash this President.... he does so much to bash, that in itself is a pretty sad state of affairs for this country and the world... Yes, GW is a light weight mentally in comparison to former Presidents...Einstein isn't worth a mention, not in the same time zone...but I have no problem with the lack of aptitude of this president, the issue I have with him is his policy... domestic, and international... the f***ing idiot can't get anything right... it isn't because he is republican...actually GW isn't even much of republican, Mr. Spend-a-lot... I disgress... GW is the worst president since Coolidge..or back even further, US Grant...
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:37 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cure View Post
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
-- Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945



Couple Patriot Act examples:


--Secretly search the home of Brandon Mayfield, a Muslim attorney whom the government wrongly suspected, accused and detained as a perpetrator of the Madrid train bombings;

--Serve a National Security Letter (NSL) on an Internet Service Provider (ISP) so coercive under the terms prescribed by the statute that a federal court struck down the entire statute - as vastly expanded by the Patriot Act - used to obtain information about e-mail activity and web surfing for intelligence investigations;

--Gag that ISP from disclosing this abuse to the public, and gag the ACLU itself, which represents the ISP, from disclosing this abuse to the public when the ACLU became aware of it, and from disclosing important circumstances relating to this abuse and other possible abuses of the gag, even to this very day;

--Charge, detain, and prosecute a Muslim student in Idaho, Sami al-Hussayen, for providing "material support" to terrorists because he posted to an Internet website links to objectionable materials, even though such links were available on the websites of the government's own expert witness in the case and on the website of a major news outlet;

--Deny, on account of his political beliefs, admission to the United States of a Swiss national, Tariq Ramadan, a prominent Muslim scholar who was to assume a teaching position at Notre Dame University; and

--Investigate and prosecute crimes that are not terrorism offenses, even though it cited terrorism prevention as the reason Congress should enact the law, and cites terrorism prevention as the reason why it cannot be changed.


------------

We need to keep ourselves safe from terrorism, but if we throw our Constitution away to do so, then they have beaten us... the US now tortures people in the name of terrorism, it detains people with no probable cause or formal charges in the name of terrorism, it spies on us in the name of terrorism...

That is truly un-American.


Cure, Yep, Yep *sigh*... yep, yep...
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:42 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBuddhaPup View Post
Political relativism...:lol:

It doesn't take just anything to bash this President.... he does so much to bash, that in itself is a pretty sad state of affairs for this country and the world... Yes, GW is a light weight mentally in comparison to former Presidents...Einstein isn't worth a mention, not in the same time zone...but I have no problem with the lack of aptitude of this president, the issue I have with him is his policy... domestic, and international... the f***ing idiot can't get anything right... it isn't because he is republican...actually GW isn't even much of republican, Mr. Spend-a-lot... I disgress... GW is the worst president since Coolidge..or back even further, US Grant...
Nah. The honor you are referring to was held by the previous occupant of the White House for many reasons. I'll list them if you are interested, and none has to do with his sexual daliances.
To begin with, his administration was without Cabinet Level members for over 6 months -- he hadn't even nominated everyone for over 4 months. This is absolutely unacceptable.
Then there was the sale of missile technology to China that allowed them to move their weapons program to a level where they could strike our soil.
Need I go further?
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:44 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
catman...

And your answer addresses the many injustices as listed by cure how...?

You say the Patriot Act is just fine. At least admit that it infringes on the rights of innocent people. Argue that it is a necessary evil in the war on terror. But don't lie and say, "only guilty people have something to fear." It's just not true. Many innocent people have been detained without trial because of the Patriot Act. We are beginning to act more like those we are fighting, instead of separating ourselves and proving we are better.
How you ask? Need I respond to everything posted here?
Again, those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear. As I have shown you, I have some knowledge of the law in these cases. I have no need to follow your advice. Simply saying nothing is more powerful than whining about things I do not fear.
The Government can read all of my e-mails, listen in on all of my telephone calls and read all of my mail if they wish.
You still have not answered the question explaining how you, personally, have been adversely effected by the Patriot Act. Please do not dodge the question, Fresh.
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