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Old 01-24-2007, 04:18 PM   #316
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Thanks for the definitions...

Now to the point:



So if I can show life before that age (well before that) that would show that your understanding (and follow-on legal defintions) would be in error wouldn't it?

Let me know...
You just passed over the definition of viability... a fetus can't exist outside the body before the start of the 25th week... that science hasn't changed for over 40 years...

the 25th week is the 25th week... no semantics are needed here... no queebling... it is a fact....

It is a good solid scientific standard on what limits there should be on abortion as a birth control procedure... late term abortions as birth control procedure should not be done, that will agree with... the only time late term should be done is in the woman's endangerment, a woman has the right to self defense, and if it is stillborn, then the reason is obvious...

And now you know...
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Old 01-24-2007, 04:30 PM   #317
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...the 25th week is the 25th week... no semantics are needed here... no queebling... it is a fact...
I agree and here are twins at that age....

For now... what's to prevent an in-vitro fertilization from happening outside of womb and making this preemie a one-week gestation? Science? Technology?

Your definition of viability is based on what is possible now, not life itself. That is where your definition fails.

That is why life cannot be pegged at 25th week, 5th week, 5th day, or 5th minute, but at conception.
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Old 01-24-2007, 04:34 PM   #318
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Only after explicit permission is given by relatives of deceased.

Get permission from cells themselves (hard to do), or cell donor (possible though highly unlikely), or God, and you can do research on them....
If it makes this a little less disturbing for you, from what I've read the research is only done with the permission of the donors. It's part of the federal policy concerning which research can be funded http://stemcells.nih.gov/policy/

Here's a link from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, supposed to be the first to "successfully isolate and culture" embryonic stem cells. http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/st...s/facts.html#2
As you can see, according to this donor permission was given specifically for this research. As well, they say that in most in vitro fertilization clinics extra embryos are discarded.

Based on this kind of information, I believe you should be more concerned with the fertilization clinics than the stem cell research, IntheNet.

One last point. You've previously brought up that you consider this to be taking lives for unproven research. Should any kind of cure be discovered through embryonic stem cell research, would that change your position at all?
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Old 01-24-2007, 04:36 PM   #319
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I agree and here are twins at that age....

For now... what's to prevent an in-vitro fertilization from happening outside of womb and making this preemie a one-week gestation? Science? Technology?

Your definition of viability is based on what is possible now, not life itself. That is where your definition fails.

That is why life cannot be pegged at 25th week, 5th week, 5th day, or 5th minute, but at conception.

What if the moon was made of cheese?

It doesn't happen....

The End.
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Old 01-24-2007, 10:48 PM   #320
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IntheNet:

The leftover embryos at fertility clinics are either kept frozen, are adopted, or are destroyed, depending on the wishes of the doners. The stem cell research we want to do is on the embryos that are already scheduled for destruction. So... would you support using these embryos that are going to be thawed and incinerated for stem cell research? And if you would not, then tell me why? And please leave the "not kill them argument" out of it... these are embryos that are already going to be destroyed.

.....

An alternate theory of genesis:

Did Life Begin In Space?

Interstellar organic molecules suggest that Earth may have been seeded by the cosmos.

By Kathryn Garfield

DISCOVER Vol. 27 No. 11 | November 2006 | Space

Interstellar clouds of gas are impregnated with organic molecules, the chemical ingredients of life. In just two years of work with the Robert C. Byrd Green Bank Telescope, astronomers have discovered eight new organic molecules near the center of the Milky Way, bolstering theories that key chemical precursors of life were first forged in deep space.

All eight of the new carbon-containing molecules are relatively large, composed of 6 to 11 atoms each. One of the molecules, acetamide, is particularly exciting because it contains a peptide bond, the essential bond for connections between amino acids. "No one has ever found an amino acid in space," says Jan M. Hollis of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. "I've actually written several papers about not finding them."

The new finds join a list of about 125 smaller carbon-based molecules identified in space so far. All of them tend to form by simple chemical reactions between smaller components or through the activity of radicals and neutral molecules on the surface of floating dust grains. Eventually, energy from nearby protostars causes the molecules to evaporate off the dust and fly end over end through space, where astronomers can trace their radiation frequencies, since each molecule radiates in a distinctive way.

In the famous Miller-Urey experiment of the 1950s, researchers produced a rich soup of amino acids by running an electric current through flasks containing elements of a primitive Earth, thus showing how precursor chemicals could have formed here. But the discovery of biologically significant molecules in interstellar clouds of gas and dust could push life's history much, much farther back in time and out into space. "When you look at these clouds, it's almost like looking back into history," Hollis says. Molecules like these, traveling on interplanetary dust, meteorites, or comets, "could give life a jump-start on an early planet."
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Old 01-25-2007, 03:23 AM   #321
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IntheNet,
Either these nice fellas really want to know you, or they really want to get under your skin on a subject that nobody can prove correct or incorrect until it is proven 100%. My personal advice is let this subject go because anyone can drag this out and not know a dang thing about it.
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Old 01-25-2007, 07:13 AM   #322
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IntheNet,
Either these nice fellas really want to know you, or they really want to get under your skin on a subject that nobody can prove correct or incorrect until it is proven 100%. My personal advice is let this subject go because anyone can drag this out and not know a dang thing about it.
What is it that needs to be proven here? Who's dragging things out without knowing anything about it? I won't speak for any other posters, but I think I've both asked reasonable questions and provided some basic information to show why those questions are being asked. If you or anyone else doesn't want to read or respond, you are certainly free not to.

If your comments were in response to others and did not include my posts, it just seemed you were lumping everyone in this thread other than IntheNet together. And if you have any responses to the questions I posed IntheNet, I'd be happy to hear them. I don't have particularly strong feelings on the subject, but I find it interesting, and I honestly don't understand some of the arguments against stem cell research. I try hard to be polite in the debates and arguments on this board, despite the fact I'm very argumentative by nature I think and hope I've done that in this thread.
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:21 AM   #323
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...would you support using these embryos that are going to be thawed and incinerated for stem cell research? And if you would not, then tell me why?
A bad thing is not made better by a poor excuse. Use of embryologic stem cells for research is wrong; immaterial to this fact is where the stem cells came from and whether or not they will be destroyed by doners. You can't improve a bad practice with a poor excuse.

The moral high ground on this point is clear; respect for the ingredients of life are sound. The cells themselves have the potential of life or life itself. That is an ethical priori and a moral touchstone. Should you choose to go down this road of abuse of life in the alleged aim if hokey research, at least accept society's scorn and don't be a hypocrite and think you don't deserve it.
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:34 AM   #324
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... So you'd rather them be destroyed than used for research. Gotcha.
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Old 01-25-2007, 11:44 AM   #325
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Cure,
It's not about morals for this guy, he says it is, but it's not. If he really cared about the "lives" of these embryos he would be against in vetro fertilization and the fact that these embryos are destroyed everyday. No, for him it's all about politics. He and his crew know that this is a hot issue with fundamentalists and they know it can be used to get out the ote. SO for him he will argue aginast stem cell research for political gain, while millions continue to suffer with diseases that could be cured. He doesn't care that they are destroyed, as long as science doesn't benefit from it.
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Old 01-25-2007, 12:36 PM   #326
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What is it that needs to be proven here? Who's dragging things out without knowing anything about it? I won't speak for any other posters, but I think I've both asked reasonable questions and provided some basic information to show why those questions are being asked. If you or anyone else doesn't want to read or respond, you are certainly free not to.

If your comments were in response to others and did not include my posts, it just seemed you were lumping everyone in this thread other than IntheNet together. And if you have any responses to the questions I posed IntheNet, I'd be happy to hear them. I don't have particularly strong feelings on the subject, but I find it interesting, and I honestly don't understand some of the arguments against stem cell research. I try hard to be polite in the debates and arguments on this board, despite the fact I'm very argumentative by nature I think and hope I've done that in this thread.
I wasn't actually making reference to you, sorry that I wasn't clear on that. As for "proof",...it appears that is what it will take for others to put an end of this see-saw debate. But then again, it is a message board.
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Old 01-25-2007, 12:41 PM   #327
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It's not about morals for this guy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntheNet
The moral high ground on this point is clear...
Reading is Fundamental...
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:30 PM   #328
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Reading is Fundamental...
Exactly, read my post. I said, "it's not about fundamentals for this guys, HE SAYS IT IS..."

I read what you said, it's just very clear that this is political and a not moral in your stance. You could care less if the embryos are destroyed. They have been doing that for years, you or your religion never protested that. It's only when science may benefit that you have a problem - political. The end result is the same - the embryo never becomes human and is destroyed. But the only point when you have a problem is when science benefits.

Typical, you would rather go back in time than progress into a better future.
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:39 PM   #329
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You could care less if the embryos are destroyed. .
Your opinion; and a wrong one.

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...only point when you have a problem is when science benefits...
Has science benefitted? Has stem cell technology saved one life yet or are we talking the potential of benefit? Be clear with your terminology!

What you have clearly not thought about is the dangerous precedent such stem cell research proposes.... harvest fetal tissue here now, later kill some teenagers because science thinks we can use their brain cortext for some other ailment research... At what point do you stop and say, "Wait... we can't terminate one life, or parts of a life, to save another." Or does your selfishness win out every time?
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:50 PM   #330
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Your opinion; and a wrong one.



Has science benefitted? Has stem cell technology saved one life yet or are we talking the potential of benefit? Be clear with your terminology!

What you have clearly not thought about is the dangerous precedent such stem cell research proposes.... harvest fetal tissue here now, later kill some teenagers because science thinks we can use their brain cortext for some other ailment research... At what point do you stop and say, "Wait... we can't terminate one life, or parts of a life, to save another." Or does your selfishness win out every time?
If I am wrong why weren't you and your church protesting years ago when embryos where being destroyed by the millions from in vetro fertilization?

The benefits are clear, if you allow the research to take place. Using stem cells, scientists have been able to reconstruct the spinal chords in other animals (mice, ect..) This can be done with humans, if proper research s funded.

At what point do we stop? We stop when you actually terminate the life of something that is living - breathing, heart beat, A VIABLE CREATURE. We definately don't stop with a group of cells that doesn't even resemble any form of an animal, let alone a human. Especially a group of cells that is about to be destroyed and completely wasted.

You have lost this argument both on this message board and in the view of the public. Stem cell research is going on right now and will continue. The only thing I can hope for is that one day you have an ailment that can be cured by the use of stem cells. I hope you have the opportunity to save you own live by the medical use and application of stem cells. Then I wonder if you will still view that small microscopic bunch of cells as a human being, or as a "gift from God," sent to save your live.
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