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Old 08-01-2005, 06:47 PM   #1
Ellis
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Default Democracy?

How can America be called a democracy when ever the president can elect John Bolton as ambassador to the UN, despite the fact that the Senate voted against him and many big politcal figures advised Bush against it.

I don't get it. just look at Bolton! I mean, I hate to judge a guy by his looks, but he doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed. Ontop of that, he has been quoted in the past making remarks against the UN. Hmmm... someone who is or was against the UN gets the job as the ambassador to the UN. Doesn't make much sense.

Even many republicans don't like Bolton!

... I just don't understand it...
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Old 08-01-2005, 08:59 PM   #2
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The UN is bull**** (reference Rob's previous thread) anyways.
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Old 08-02-2005, 11:39 AM   #3
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Well Ellis, its called a recess appointment. Perfectly legal, and in line with our democratic process. I'm sure you've heard this before, but I can't resist the urge everytime I read something like Ellis' post: the USA is not a democracy really, its a representative republic. That's why you didn't get to vote on John Bolton's appointment (not election, as you stated).
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Old 08-02-2005, 03:56 PM   #4
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I have to strongly side with Ricky here ellis. I know it is just frustration on your part, but this a mindset we need to get rid of in this nation. The idea that the people rule instead of representatives just baffles me. Then we have liberal blowhards saying we need to see what the new SC nominee stands for. No you don't. You need to win an election and take your dose of loser medicine til that time. Qualifications to serve on the court? The Constitution gives the President all the power in the world on who to nominate. If you don't like the pick, get yourself a new President. Oh, I forgot, you don't have the votes....almost like this is America.

Gimmme a break.
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Old 08-03-2005, 07:35 PM   #5
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Yeah, buckeye. The libs want to complain about not getting to pick a SC Justice, but they can't even pick a canidate to win an election. I predict this is only the beginning of the end for the Democratic Party.
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Old 08-03-2005, 10:32 PM   #6
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Didn't mean to blow my top. Republicans would be doing the same thing if they didn't have the power. The Democrats are just so pathetic about it though, esp. that old senile bat Byrd from WV. Then we have Clinton fighting video games to court the Christian right. Oh it's so morally wrong to play these video games!!!!!! What about CAFTA? What about health care? What a joke. Fight for your own ideas. And if your scoring at home, Ohio's special August election was yesterday and saw more Republicans take control statewide. If anyone thinks the Dems have any chance to take back Ohio in 08 they are on crack. Of course I said that til I turned blue back before the 04 election.
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Old 08-07-2005, 08:17 AM   #7
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Default Re: Democracy?

Quote:
Originally posted by Ellis
How can America be called a democracy when ever the president can elect John Bolton as ambassador to the UN, despite the fact that the Senate voted against him and many big politcal figures advised Bush against it.

I don't get it. just look at Bolton! I mean, I hate to judge a guy by his looks, but he doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed. Ontop of that, he has been quoted in the past making remarks against the UN. Hmmm... someone who is or was against the UN gets the job as the ambassador to the UN. Doesn't make much sense.

Even many republicans don't like Bolton!

... I just don't understand it...

Granted, making John Bolton UN ambassador is rather like putting a fox in charge of a henhouse - but remember that Clinton did the same thing, using a recess appointment to name James Hormel ambassador to Luxembourg; Hormel is gay and Luxembourg is 97 per cent Catholic, so his appointment was arguably every bit as self-contradictory as Bolton's.

And buckeyefan78, the real reason the Democrats didn't win Ohio - and West Virginia - last year is because they have been perceived as "soft" on America's foreign enemies since at least 1972, if not 1946; how else to explain Bush's victory in the most heavily-unionized state in the country (West Virginia) and in a state whose economy has been utterly devastated since Bush took office (Ohio)?
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Old 08-08-2005, 01:57 AM   #8
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Anthony...

We've discussed this before and I can't disagree more strongly. You are buying the image of Ohio, not the reality. Demographic shifts within the sate have swung Ohio to the Republicans.

For years the northern part of the state dominated the political landscape. The rust belt cities of Cleveland, Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Warren, and Toledo held the VAST share of the sate's total population. These cities were very pro-labor with a large eastern and southern European population (Italians, Slavs, Greeks, Irish too for that matter) as well as a large black population. They were formally uneducated, poor, and largely Catholic. The unskilled labor was fully entrenched with the Democrats as they took over the role as friends to labor in the early 1900s. The southern part of the state was overwhelmingly white and agricultural, not to mention evangelical. In fact, the evangelicals originated in Germany and Ohio still has the highest German population in the nation near Columbus and the western part of the state. They sided with the Republicans as the 20th century came about when the Right became friendly to small farmers and social conservatives (no blacks down there= no need for rights). It was like two regions within one state during the heyday of industry (1940s-1970s). Cleveland or Akron were more like Chicago or Detroit while a small town 50 miles to the south was more like Jackson, Mississippi, complete with accents and all! In all honesty, I can't understand some people from the southern part of my own state when they talk to me. Their accents are too thick.

The devastation you speak of began long before Bush took office Anthony. And this is the real lack of understanding by the media at large that people are buying. I can give you an exact date things went bad in Ohio: September 19, 1977. This date is known in Youngstown as "Black Monday." That's the day the first mill in Youngstown announced it was closing. A city with rougly 140,000 people saw a loss of 75,000 manufacturing jobs over a 5 year span. Cleveland's steel mills soon followed. Akron's mighty rubber empire wasn't far behind. Toledo's glass dynasty fell soon as well. Now that's devastation. I have more than one childhood friend who found their father's lifeless body hanging in their garage after the mills closed.

For the last 25 to 30 years, there has been as steady shift in Ohio's population, politics, and economy. The large urban cities of the north lost nearly all their industry by the late 1980s. Sure, the larger cities of Cleveland and Toledo have hung on to some, but not much. With this loss of industy came the loss of population. Cleveland has less than 400,000 people today, down from a high of about 1,000,000 in the 1950s. These were all Democrats Anthony, fully behind their friends of labor.

As the 21st century dawned, the state "equalled out." The total population of the northern cities is now slightly behind that of the southern agricultural areas, with the booming northern suburbs and outlying areas' youngsters going conservative (our Ricky the Kid fits in here) as their memories of any industry fade away. In short (yeah, I've gone nuts here) Anthony, you are VASTLY OVERESTIMATING THE POWER OF UNIONS IN THIS STATE TODAY, AS WELL AS EVEN 10 OR 15 YEARS AGO. The state's total population is now slightly more made up of those who's lives haven't changed since their ancestors moved to southern Ohio. They have always been socially conservative and anti-social state. This has nothing to do with foreign policy. It never has in Ohio. The northern residents always wanted labor rights and civil rights. The southern residents (who didn't have a voice until recently) were always for the small business owner (farmers) and morally conservative (gorgeous churches in the southern and western part of the state). I know you read about the 250,000 people who lost their jobs under Bush's first four years in the manufacturing sector. Problem is Anthony, those people didn't vote for Bush the first time !!!! They voted for Gore. No one realizes that. They either voted for Kerry or got the hell out of Dodge by the time 04 rolled around (furthering the loss of the pro-labor Democratic pop. in the state).

Do me a favor Anthony and look at a map of Ohio and the election results for president in 04. Blue counties will be in the northeast sector and Toledo (Athens county in the south goes Dem due to socially liberal students at Ohio U). All the red counties will be in the southern and western part of the state (those German evangelicals who finally found their man in Bush getting their voice out as the majority in 00 and 04). 13 OF 88 COUNTIES IN OHIO WENT FOR KERRY, YET BUSH ONLY WON THE STATE BY 118,000 VOTES!!! I'll put it to you this way: my hometown of Youngstown (who would vote a chicken for mayor if it was a Dem) had 175,000 people in the 1960s. In 2004, that number was down to 70,000 people. There's 105,000 votes Kerry could have got if only the mills never closed. And that is only ONE CITY UP NORTH !! The large urban centers up north carried Kerry as far as they could, but this ain't 1960 anymore. They don't have the people or power of their unions.

I know 250,000 jobs sounds like a bunch, but belive me Anthony, that number around here is child's play compared to what happened in the 1970s. The thing is, it just took awhile for the old regime to die out. That's understandable. Now things are going to only get more conservative here. Even the traditional cities up north aren't going Democratic by the percentage they used too. Why would they? If there's one thing I can tell you for sure about all the people on here from northern Ohio (myself, Ricky, Kevin), it is that working in a mill was never going to be an option for us. So what do you do? You go to school and work with your brain, not your hands. Next thing you know....boom...the demographic has changed. Suddenly, educated suburbanites with desk jobs appear. Who do those guys vote for again? I even find myself increasingly conservative on some issues Anthony. NOTHING in Ohio has changed with the exception of the collapse of industry finally catching up with the Democrats. Foreign policy to an Ohio native is us getting a kicker from Norway to play for the Buckeyes.

Here's that map of Ohio, and remember, this is 25 years AFTER the collapse of industry and the Dems still managed to pull out those counties up north...

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pag.../P/00/map.html

Last edited by buckeyefan78; 08-08-2005 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 08-10-2005, 08:15 AM   #9
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buckeyefan78, please go back and read my post: I stated that West Virginia - not Ohio - is the most heavily-unionized state in the U.S. (and the Democrats did not become a "friend of labor" until the 1932 election, and not one year earlier; their 1924 Presidential candidate, John W. Davis, actually campaigned to the right of Republican incumbent Calvin Coolidge, and 30 years later Davis was the lead attorney for the defendants in the Brown v. Board of Education Supreme Court case, which declared racially-segregated schools unconstitutional).

And I'm well aware of how I-70 is an extension of the Mason-Dixon line - not only across Ohio, but also Indiana and Illinois as well. Remember the movie Harper Valley P.T.A.? It was shot in Lebanon, Ohio. I'm also aware of the fact that Ohio's state Civil Rights Act includes "persons of Appalachian ancestry" (some of whom, rather surprisingly, are actually Italian-American!) among the categories against which discrimination is prohibited.

I still maintain that one of the key reasons why Bush won in Ohio in 2004 is because support for the war is relatively high there - or at least, support for cutting and running from Iraq is very low (Ohioans are patriotic Americans, at least compared with the residents of certain other states - or so it seems; and keep in mind that a large part of being "socially conservative" involves being against the kind of policies George McGovern stood for in 1972, of which softness on America's foreign enemies was paramount - a stereotype that has stuck to the Democratic Party like Velcro ever since). And arguably, the map shows as much of an east-west split as a north-south one.

But don't worry, better days are ahead - like when Columbus gets the other NFL expansion team (besides Los Angeles, of course) around 2008 or so!

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Old 08-11-2005, 11:26 PM   #10
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Excuse the generalization on "early 1900s." Good point. Like I said later on in my post, 1940s-70s is more like it with the height of manufacturing. The constant warring was good for business (don't tell W that one).Show me a jeep rolling down Berlin in April of 45 and I'll show you tires from Akron, a frame from Youngstown, and a windshield from Toledo. Still, that conicides with the rise of the Dems in all three branches. I can't use Wilson in 12 as a friend, very true. He fought all those anti-trusts acts to death. When the Dems bit on taking up the side of the Populists in 1896 and supporting farming, man did they screw themselves for a long time.

Our Appalachian ancestry is in the southeast part of the state, where it has traditionally been close between the parties. If you look at my map, you'll see the division there. Those people are DIRT poor.

The east-west split and north-south is one in the same really. Northeast is labor, poor, uneducated, factory, and minority. Anything south of Canton and west of Cleveland's burbs (excluding Toledo) is white, farming, NASCAR, Jesus, and Confederate flags (had to take a shot at them...they've taken over MY state).

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. You have a good theory applying the right knowledge, but I guess I'm just saying "I grew up here" when it comes down to it. People up north are VERY against the war, but believe me, jobs are #1 by far when speaking of important issues. We just don't have the population anymore to defeat the right's population which has remained constant down south. It really is as simply as that when I look at it. Then again, I'm often accused of living in the past (everyone can make their own jokes there), so go figure.

That NFL team will be better days for those guys, not up north. Interesting stat...

Cleveland gets about 3X as much snow as Columbus on average and receives HALF the amount of state funds for snow removal as them. The good ole boys down there control the money and run the show. Visit Columbus (looks like a western city, say a Denver or Phoenix) then visit Cleveland or Akron ( looks like...well...use my Berlin of 1945 reference again). It will just be one more thing for us to argue about here in the Buckeye state if Columbus gets an NFL team.

Sorry KB on the Akron jab, but we all know the sad truth.

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Old 08-12-2005, 04:41 AM   #11
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Columbus, Ohio, Indianapolis and Springfield, Illinois are classic "cusp cities," where the cultural Midwest and the cultural South meet; most people, especially those not from that area, are clueless as to this, remembering instead how their 7th-grade civics teacher divided the states, placing all three of them solely within the Midwest.

And if you asked most people what the largest city in Ohio was, they would be more likely to say Cleveland (population 478,000 as of 200) or Cincinnati (317,000) than Columbus (711,000) - because the fact that the former two cities have MLB and NFL franchises while the latter does not would bias their judgment.

Even though San Antonio has a larger population (1.1 million) than Columbus, my money's on Columbus for the other NFL expansion team because of the nature of San Antonio's demographics: First off, San Antonio is more than half Latino (58% specifically), and their favorite sports tend to be baseball and soccer, not football (especially the immigrants among them); and second, more than 17% of San Antonio's population is below the poverty level - how can these people be expected to even purchase team merchandise, much less tickets to actual games?

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Old 08-13-2005, 01:40 AM   #12
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Agreed on the cities Anthony. The main thing about them is that they are capitals in states with rust belt cities hugging the Great Lakes to the north with farming to the south. At one time Cleveland and Cincinnati were larger than Columbus, which sits in people's minds. In fact, both cities were top 5 in population at one time in U.S. history. Columbus doesn't really "feel" like a big city, especially at a Buckeye game. Their downtown is kind of small, especially compared to Cleveland. Indianapolis is very similar to Columbus in my experience, although I've only been there 3 or 4 times. Both have nearly identical layouts in terms of square mileage and city planning (highway system especially).

To be honest with you, I don't know how Columbus would react to a pro team. The Buckeyes are so big there and carry so much weight that I can't see it happening. Plus, everyone there is already either a Browns (I think more lean Cleveland there) or Begnals fan.

Money is in no shortage in Columbus, that is for sure. It is the only large city in the Midwest that posted a population gain the last two decades consecutively. Government and financial jobs are thriving there.

San Antonio might be Cowboy Country. No clue on what goes on down there. The poverty issue might not be that strong. How big is their suburban base? Cleveland might as well be one big Hooverville at this point. The city ranks #1 in child poverty in the nation (even beating out cities in the South) and is generally a wreck at this point. Their saving grace is a huge suburban base as well as the smaller supporting cities within an hour's drive of it (Canton, Akron, Youngstown).

My brother got us free tickets for the Giants game tomorrow so I'll let you know if the joint is still standing when I get back.
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