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Old 07-02-2003, 01:23 PM   #1
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Default Marshall and Louisville to big east

Many people are saying that the Big east , in responce to loosing Miami and VT, will invite Louisville and Marshall to the big east.

I would love to see both teams come. I live in Pittsburgh so loosing both teams seems like a big deal to me. WHY COULDN"T THE ACC INVITE PITT? THEN I COULD GO TO PITT vs. UNC games.

Anywho, Bringing Louisville to the big east would be great. It would add excitment to big east basketball.

Now, Marshall is my favorite collage and has been for about 5 years. I loved Seeing Moss and Pennington and Leftwitch was great to see play. He has amazing intensity and will do great in the nfl.

HELL YEAH, IM GONNA GO TO MARSHALL

But anyways, If Marshall recruits another great QB like Leftwich or PEnnington it will add great excitment to Big East basketball.

I think the whould invite both teams. It would be great for the big east
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Old 07-02-2003, 01:25 PM   #2
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My father went to Pitt and wants the Panthers to go to the Big 10 but I dont see that happening unless the NCAA comes out right now and says 11 team conferences cant form a Championship game.

I think Marshall and Louisville are two very solid additions but will the ACC take them first? Or will that even be enough to save them from not keeping their BCS bid.
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Old 07-02-2003, 01:29 PM   #3
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Pitt wasn't invited due to one thing...money. Pittsburgh cannot provide the the television money essential to getting invited like Miami can. Markets with pro teams ( that's why BC wasn't an attractive school for the ACC either, just stroking Miami's ego by bringing their name up was the ACC's motive there) are unable to secure enough revenue to make the ACC happy through tv contracts. Yes, Miami has pro teams, but they are the exception. VT provides little money as well, not sure if more or less then Pitt, but their program since joining the Big East has made Pitt's look like a team of 6 year old girls overall.
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Old 07-02-2003, 01:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by buckeyefan78
Pitt wasn't invited due to one thing...money. Pittsburgh cannot provide the the television money essential to getting invited like Miami can. Markets with pro teams ( that's why BC wasn't an attractive school for the ACC either, just stroking Miami's ego by bringing their name up was the ACC's motive there) are unable to secure enough revenue to make the ACC happy through tv contracts. Yes, Miami has pro teams, but they are the exception. VT provides little money as well, not sure if more or less then Pitt, but their program since joining the Big East has made Pitt's look like a team of 6 year old girls overall.
The way Pitt has played the last year and in the enviorment that they are in, I feel that if they were given the chance they would pull in more TV money then people realize. Their attendence has dragged for quite awhile but their program is on the obvious upswing and their coach is a solid recruiter. Pitt may not be the #1 money maker but I still believe that they wont drag anyone down.
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Old 07-02-2003, 02:21 PM   #5
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I disagree completely SouthLink...

Although I am an " outsider" to the Pittsburgh area, I have lived here for over two years now. Their attendance dragging is an understatement of monumental proportions. NO ONE GOES TO GAMES HERE ! I believe the attendance for the Texas A&M showdown last year was around 37, 000 at the 65,000 seat Heinz Field. Pitt was hyped up big time too last year.

I've been very critical of Pitt earlier on these boards S.Link, before your arrival, and I don't know what else to say. Aside from having ONE good year in football, and two in b-ball, Pitt's athletics have been horrible in recent years. Their state of the art facilities are nice, and the b-ball team got all sell outs, HOWEVER THAT WAS WITH THE STEELERS IN THE OFFSEASON. NO ONE CAN EVER, AND I MEAN EVER, COMPETE WITH THE STEELERS IN PITTSBURGH.

The last thing the Big Ten needs is a team that plays second fiddle to a pro team. We have enough dead weight in football with NW and Indiana, who in all fairness, is our best b-ball program historically, so that is something to prop them up.

Their upswing as you refer to is just that, an upswing. Pitt has NEVER consistantly been able to carry momentum in football, even in the 70s, when they were one of the best teams in the country.

I've been to games for Pitt at the old stadium and Heinz. I have also been to Ohio Stadium, Michigan Stadium, and Spartan Stadium. In comparison, Pitt seems like a high school team to them. Pitt football is NOT big time football by any means.
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Old 07-02-2003, 02:42 PM   #6
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Ellisismyhero,

First off, are you referring to Ellis Cannon?

Alright, I told myself I was going to stop talking about this, because my nerves can't really take it, and quite frankly everything I've said on the topic has been completely wrong. I said that VT was just a pawn and that they'd turn down the ACC bid. They left. Then I said that Miami didn't like the 11 team idea, and they'd stay in a 7 team big east. They left too.

This idea of Louisville and Marshall to the Big East is a mediocre idea at best. Louisville is good in hoops, but pretty much mediocre at best in football. Since our hoops conference is already among the best in the nation, and football rules supreme in $$, I don't see where adding Louisville helps much.

WVU will never let Marshall join the Big East. It won't happen. There's already a shortage of recruitable talent in WV, what would happen to WVU if they had to split it with Marshall?

Quite frankly, any move we make is going to have to be for the long term, as there is no short term solution. If we were thought of as a weak conference WITH perennial top 10 powers Miami and VT, then nobody, not even Notre Dame and PSU, could legitimize the Big East. We should be resigned to the fact that we're going to lose our BCS bid after 2005, (lets pray the BCS goes bye-bye), and should be looking toward schools that are showing improvement and the potential to be top 25.

As for my beloved Pitt, they should take the next invitation out of the Big East, or try and go independent for a couple of years. Anything but this fiasco.
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Old 07-03-2003, 03:24 PM   #7
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On 78's most recent post: Pitt is still lagging. No doubt. I have doubts that Harris is the man to return Pitt to former glories, twenty-odd years gone now. Harris appears to have been the right guy to start the effort; Pitt now needs someone who can continue to pluck the plentiful talent from PA, as well as someone who lives and recruits in Florida. Add to the fact that Pitt is nothing like a good fit for the Big 10 in ANY way (athletics, academic, environment, etc.) and there's no reason that Pitt would/should ever be permitted entrance to the Big 10. I've said it before, I'll say it again: there's only one team I will accept in a bigger Big 10, and that's Notre Dame. If the Big 10 wants Missouri, fine. But, ND belongs in the Big 10, not Pitt. Pitt was an eastern independent; Penn is an eastern state; the Big 10 is a midwestern conference. I will not argue about this.

Chevy missed my remarks somewhere about WV's recruits and where they go to play football. They go to Marshall already. WVU is concerned about revenue and venue when they match up against Marshall, not recruiting. They already trail in that battle, and have no real desire to pick it up. (This past recruiting season, WVU landed one WV signee, Marshall landed three from WV.)

Remember, Chevy, these are BUSINESS decisions, not academic or recruiting issues. Division 1-A schools, especially those with athletic budgets like WVU has, isn't concerned about local talent. They gave up on that fallow ground long ago. They're concerned about getting guys out of Florida, and Rodriguez likes the Mississippi/Louisiana/Alabama talent, as well. While I don't know the real reasons for WVU reticence in scheduling the Herd, I wouldn't be shocked to learn there's some local political issue; $$$ more than likely, that would shift the Herd's way under some circumstance that the two schools' athletics came under more equal footing. Something stupid, old, and outdated, more than likely, anyway.

On the future of the BCS and the Big East automatic bid: I would be surprised to see the bid go away before the end of the TV contract. Not heart-attack-shocked, but surprised. The future of the BCS itself is still quite murky. Considerations of taking away an automatic bid were already under way, as are considerations of adding a bowl, which would necessitate increasing the number of at-large bids by two, or giving C-USA or Mtn West an automatic bid (unlikely, but possible).

The ACC demolition of the Big East football conference is indeed complete, but that doesn't mean something can't come of it. Remember the mid-90s when Miami was on probation and sort of schlubby anyway? VT, previously an athletically anonymous school, rode Michael Vick and impeccable recruiting and coaching to national prominence. I don't think the remaining Big East schools have the combined recruiter/coach that Beamer is, but that doesn't mean they can't poach him from somewhere. Maybe it's Bob Petrino, former Auburn O coordinator and current Louisville HC. Besides, adding Louisville to Big East basketball would assure an instant boost in RPI, and likely a team or two more make it to the big dance. (There are two ways of looking at this, but I'll leave that argument for the Colleg BBall forum.)

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Old 07-03-2003, 04:43 PM   #8
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If it sounds as if I am hell bent on bashing Pitt, I would admit to some guilt there. I continue to live and work with native Burgher's who believe that the institution is not only close, BUT ACTUALLY EQUAL to that of a Penn St., Ohio St., or Michigan when it comes to not only football, but all around athletic abilities. It is quite frustrating personally. I sometimes wish I could buy them a ticket to a game at the Shoe to see what big time football and a true athletic university is, but I don't have that much cash. That is the personal side to it.

Pitt has never been a consistant program in ANY sport, never mind football, where it fell off the map once Marino left and sunk into perpetual 3-8ville. The fan base and financial upside would rank them no higher then 8 in the Big Ten for all around athletics if I were to venture a guess. Aside from Northwestern, I can't think of any Big Ten school who hasn't had alteast moderate success over a good stretch of time in either football or basketball ( two main cash cows) in the last 20 years ( where Pitt has suffered greatly). And even NW has had stints of success on the field and in the gym.
And as Dave said, the atmosphere just doesn't mesh with that of Big Ten life.

I agree completely with the Big East bid and tv contract sticking together Dave. I can't see a shake up there. I believe that once the contract is up, the Big East will lose it's bid if it doesn't add atleast 4 more teams to its conference. And even then, it might be close. However I can't see them losing it to another conference at that point, esp. since Conf. USA will be raped and weaker then it already is after the Big East is through with them. If anything, the bid will go as an at large bid, making the total of 2. All this is hinged upon the BCS still being around though, as Dave said, which may not be the case depending on what goes on in the next year here.

Interesting point Dave on Miami's demise in the mid 90s and the rise of VT football. Alot of media here in Pittsburgh have mentioned the same thing and how that could be the case with Pitt. I don't see it though. I don't have much faith in Harris ( still thanking God OSU got Tressel instead of him) and doubt that the city will ever transform into a " college town" where that kind of rise occurs like it did for VT. If anything, perhaps a Louisville could make some headway in that kind of thing, however I am not all too familiar with what goes on there, and the first thing that pops into my head at the mention of the Cardinals is basketball. Like Dave said, that's another thread though on the b-ball forum.
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Old 07-03-2003, 08:22 PM   #9
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While I was in Pittsburgh, I learned two things about myself and the world in general:
1. I didn't know diddly-squat about the world outside of the couple WV towns I grew up in.
2. It seems to be the case that wherever you go, the locals believe that place to be the end-all/be-all in the universe.

Pittsburghers struck me as so completely parochial in their views of the world as to be laughable. Fortunately, having been an out-of-towner going to a school intended to teach me something, I was fortified against the 'Burgh-as-center-of-the-end-of-the-world mentality that was pervasive. But, the locals I came to know, either as students, or folks I worked with through CMU or after graduation were some of the most provincial people I'd ever met, including all the hillbillies I grew up with.

That WAS the case, until, of course, I found myself in Boston, "Hub of the universe." If there are more arrogant, more self-important, more parochial people on the plant, they have to be French. And the college sports scene here sucks. The biggest game in town is every other year when Yale travels to Hahvahd. Not that doesn't have its class and tradition, but... when you're craving division 1-A football discussion, you're left pretty lacking. Actually, even Ivy League coverage is limited to that one week every year. The local TV stations travel to New Haven to bring back highlights. Otherwise, I don't think I've seen the Crimson at any other time.
And their coverage of the Boston College Eagles isn't much better. I guess there are two highlights every Saturday after the game, but...

And then these idiots up here complain that BC doesn't contend for a title, so why bother investing time and interest in them. It's enough to make one want to throw up.

Pitt COULD build itself up, 78. Stranger things have happened. PA is still a state, like Ohio, that grows football players on the trees. I agree that Harris isn't the guy to get them there, but he's gotten the recruiting and the football program looking like there will be a tomorrow.

And if you think a small town is a requisite for building up a college football program, there's a small town just 80 miles south of you on I-79 that would happily oblige becoming the next big thing and dominating the Big East. Unfortunately, I don't think they have the guy for the job there, either.

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Old 07-04-2003, 10:37 AM   #10
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Dave...

Comparing WVU and Pitt is an interesting case study. If there was a program that could dust itself off after the Miami defection and make a run at becoming a TRUE powerhouse in football, and perhaps all around athletics, it is WVU, and not Pitt, IMO, in comparing the two. Again, I'm not too familiar with WVU though. Atleast not enough to be very strong in my point here.

You're right though, they too don't have the guy for it right now. They also suffer GREATLY from not having the population pool to choose from like Penn St., Pitt, and OSU, their nearby counterparts. However, they have the MENTALITY that is necessary to become a great college sports town, if I were to venture a guess, atleast more so then Pittsburgh.

In any event, I doubt either institution will develop into a blossoming football power like VT did anyway. Marshall has a better chance at developing into something special, atleast in football anyway, over WVU and Pitt, due to their downfalls. That point I guess is debatable, but interesting because Marshall and WVU are so close to each other. Just the mindset behind their program in Huntington, and obviously the right people have been running things there for quite some time, something WVU and Pitt haven't had on a scale from top to bottom, necessary for such a transformation. Again, this is football wise. Marshall's other athletic ventures are something that leave alot to be desired, but having football and b-ball is all you need to bring home the bacon nowadays. Facilities are another problem at Marshall.

I'll even go out further on a limb and bring up my old school, Division I-AA Youngstown St. as someone who WOULD HAVE had a better chance at making a run at becoming a better football powerhouse then a Pitt and perhaps maybe even WVU, during their heights under Tressel in the 90s. Remember, it was Marshall, Georgia Southern, and YSU who dominated the I-AA landscape in the 90s, and look where those other two programs are at right now. It was reluctance on the part of YSU to join the MAC ( that stubborn arrogance of hometown boys as you referred to Dave), as well as a little reluctance on the MAC's part to get the deal done. YSU would have had to upgrade their facilities, but I would venture to say that the Penguins had 20,000 fans a game during the 90s, while schools like Akron and Kent had LESS THEN HALF OF THAT. Pitt's attendance was proably in the 35,000 range at that point, not that far off considering Pittsburgh is roughly FIVE times the size of Youngstown in total metro population. Again though, YSU was a little to " snobish" to make certain concessions to the MAC, something I realized myself Dave, after getting out in the world a little, and seeing that locals do indeed think their town is the equivalent of ancient Rome. I found it comical that people in Youngstown were being so " picky" on this issue, failing to see the bigger picture here, as most have never ventured further then Cleveland in their lifetime. Anywho...

Atmosphere wise, Youngstown is MUCH more condusive to developing into a solid I-A college football program then Pitt,IMO. Y-town has no pro teams, and nothing of interest around. At this point, YSU IS YOUNGSTOWN. It's all it has left. The only problem may be is that all the Y-Town talent is TOO good historically. Guys like Clarett , Brad Smith at Mizzou, Reyes at Cuse, Floyd at Louisville, and Sam Crenshaw at Penn St. in recent years have just been too good to play at a I-AA school, even though they are from Y-town. And that is just recent talent. Hell, even the coaches there are too good to stick around. Tressel, Holtz, and Stoops, all from Youngstown, are just a few names in recent years too.

In any event, a " college town" atmosphere is needed to nourish a university into becoming a competitive all around athletic program. Throw in a decent size population, the facilities, and a few guys in the front office who know what they are doing, and then you have something. Right now, Pitt, WVU, Marshall, and even I-AA YSU are lacking in ATLEAST one of these categories to become the next VT. Who knows what will happen in the future though.

BTW Dave, I was listening to Savran awhile back when the whole ACC-Big East deal first broke and he was degrading Boston for putting B.C. WAY down on their list of priorities. You know, after the Sox, Celts, Bruins, and whatever. I found it funny because Pittsburgh treats it's university, one that should be the pride of the town, pretty much like dog dung itself, in favor of a pro team that has underachieved for going on 25 years now. I guess I'll take your word for it though that Boston is worse then Pittsburgh when it comes to living in a fantasy world and thinking their the s***...LOL.
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:55 PM   #11
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78,

You say a college town atmosphere is required to develop university athletics, and I just don't think you could be more wrong.

Where is the University of Miami? Downtown Miami, with a large population who's main sports interest is the Dolphins, who by the way, have also under-achieved for the past 25 years or so.

USC and UCLA are in LA. I'll concede that their population is so large that they could support just about anything, but the people of Los Angeles are notoriously bad sports fans.

I think you'll find that there are a lot more examples out there, those were just off the top of my head.

I believe the problem in Pittsburgh has less to do with being an urban school and more to do with the number of PSU, OSU, and WVU grads in the area. I also think your lambasting of our attendance last year fails to take into account none of our biggest rivals, save WVU, were home games. This season, we get VT, Miami, and ND at home. Needless to say, our attendance numbers are going to go way up this year.
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Old 07-06-2003, 01:13 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by buckeyefan78


The last thing the Big Ten needs is a team that plays second fiddle to a pro team.
Don't you mean ANOTHER Big Ten team that plays second fiddle to a pro team?

I'm looking at you, Minnesota.

UM in downtown Miami? I thought they were in Coral Gables. Not strong on South Florida geography.
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Old 07-06-2003, 01:58 AM   #13
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KevinBeane,

You're so right, UM is in Coral Gables, a whopping 6.8 miles from the center of downtown Miami, at least according to Mapquest. I apologize, they're almost rural.
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Old 07-06-2003, 06:51 PM   #14
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chevy...

This is where the line between REAL football ( Ohio St. and Michigan) and plastic football for hire ( Miami) is unseen by people who have never known the atmosphere of a town BUILT around the university where the life of EVERYONE is connected to it.

Miami has no alumni, they have no other tradition but football in the last 20 years, based solely on measures taken ( playing in a non-conference, the taking over of the Orange Bowl and such) for $, and $ only. They have MORE interest nationally then on South Beach ( where more people spend their Saturdays rather then at a Miami game) and they do absolutely nothing to enhance the way of life in any capacity for the residents of S. Florida. Miami may make money and may win over journalists in polls, but the mindset and way of operating in S. Florida is based SOLELY on profit. And that is profit for the university's athletic department and other fat cats because no one gradutates from there, and they do absolutely nothing academically to enhance their residents or the world in general.

Look, Ohio St. is a great football school, but I can say this, it is an EVEN better school to go to for an education that will carry you far ( unless you are Kevin of course...LOL...JK). Any wonder Buckeye alums are everywhere? They move all over and attend all the games because they have the CASH that comes with getting yourself a good education and lot in life. They get jobs EVERYWHERE because when someone looks at a resume and the words 'Ohio State' are there, they hold some weight. Notice any fans from Miami anywhere? Nope.

USC and UCLA have such a vast population poll to choose from that their sports programs have flourished over the years. Tell me, if you live west of Nebraska and the Texas schools, where are you going to go if you want to play big time football and get attention? USC and UCLA of course. Now, if you grow up in....oh say...central Ohio, you can pick and choose from a big pool of schools that have great tradition and the excellence all big time players want to be part of. PSU, Ohio St, Michigan, Michigan St...it goes on and on. And you get yourself a sheep skin that looks good on paper too. In my experience, alot of people hold those schools up high in academics, esp. PSU, just my observation there.

On attendance...

The numbers just don't bare out chevy. Pitt averaged something like 44,000 last year, and that is just too low. Ok, let's see what it goes up to this year, but the idea that it can compete with the top 6 teams in the Big Ten ( Mich, PSU, OSU, Mich St., Wisc, and Iowa) on a regular basis is wishfull thinking. I get a little disappointed when ONLY 89,000 fans show up at the Shoe for a game against Ohio U. or Akron or some team like that. Hell, if Pitt could get 75% of their stadium filled, I think it would be an act of God. People would match rather watch a clock in their living room to count down the hours til the Steelers kick off the next day then go down to Heinz and watch a pretty damn good football team over the last year or two.

Kevin...

You bring up Minnesota and that is a GREAT point. Minnesota struggles too with being in a " real city" as oppossed to a college town. In fact, they are close to Pitt in alot of categories, just proving that it would be unwise to take Pitt, only to have them be a bottom team in the conference.

Since Pitt joined the Big East in 1991, here's a few stats that show what they've done and where that would rank them in the Big Ten. And mind you, this is just football...

Wins since 1991...

1. Ohio State........113
2. Michigan...........111
3. Penn State.......107
4. Wisconsin.........91
5. Iowa.................75
6. Purdue..............67
7. Michigan St........65
8. Illinois................62
9. N'Western.........57
PITTSBURGH......57
11. Indiana...........52
12. Minnesota.......52

Bowl Games since 1991...

1. Michigan..........13
2. Ohio State.......11
3. Penn State......10
4. Wisconsin........ 8
5. Iowa............... 7
6. Purdue............ 6
Michigan State 6
8. Illinois............. 5
9. PITTSBURGH... 4
10. Minnesota.... 3
N'Western..... 3
12. Indiana........ 2

Why would the Big Ten go out of it's way to pick up a team that lags in attendance, couldn't provide tv revenue, and can't win? Makes no sense to me. Oh yeah, and the one team they get the edge over in football is Indiana, and if memory serves me, they've been known to play a little b-ball at that university. Just a little if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 07-06-2003, 11:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by buckeyefan78
Notice any fans from Miami anywhere? Nope.
Well ... there is digital7 if you want to be correct, but good job on the novel ... err ... post.
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