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Old 09-19-2005, 11:11 PM   #1
buckeyefan78
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Default Don't go to college...

I know I piss and moan on here all the time, but after what has transpired in the last month of my life I really need to say something I've always known to be true: college is a farce and if you can avoid going there (I know, hard these days), please do. And I'm a teacher for the love of God!

It wasn't always this bad, but it has gotten so terrible in recent years I must protest. The goverment (in my case the state of Ohio, the University of Akron, Kent State, and Youngstown State) are NOTHING but greedy corporations who operate under the guise of "higher education." It is bad enough tuition goes up 9% a year at these universites for undergrads, but that isn't even half of the story. If you are a teacher in the state of Ohio, you must be continuously working towards your masters. This is under the guise of "smarter teachers," when in reality it is a ploy to make people go back to school and spend $. It also makes you unemployable in many districts because they have to pay you more if you have your masters. A very easy way for the state of Ohio to get teachers to take jobs in the inner-cities as a last resort. It's so sad, you have to laugh at it. I mean, a teacher who has first graders must get a masters to further his/her education? How hard is it to read Curious George and finger paint? I'm not attempting to get a job at NASA. Let's keep that in mind and go on with what happened to me. Here is my deal:

I officially have the following- a Bachelor of Science (B.S.- kinda ironic huh?) in Education Degree:Integrated Social Studies Education with an Integrated Social Studies License (7-12). Fancy wording boiled down to the fact I can teach grades 7-12 in the areas of economics, psychology, history, geography, and civics in the state of Ohio and pretty much elsewhere ( a little bit of red tape). I've been teaching for over 15 years with a spotless record (according to all of my reviews...I behave in school, unlike here ).

About a month ago I called up Youngstown State University and asked them what it would take to receive my license for grades 4-9. I wanted to do this for tenure and seniority reasons (2 different things in my case, another story). I was thinking a class or two down at my old stomping grounds would be the case. Oh no, not with these greasy SOBs. I was told I would need SEVEN classes (21 credit hours) and would have to take another test to license me ( at about $300-$400 of my own dough) for grades 4-9. Umm, does this seem crazy to anyone else? And I could see them trying to use the guise of "well, middle school kids learn differently," but that wasn't the case for the most part. Anyone who has taken education courses knows that is a big part of it: analyzing "characteristics of learners." In reality, that is code for bullsh** meant to keep you in school longer for more $. This is one area where almost nothing you "learn" in college prepares you for stepping in front of a class.

Anyway, I asked about the fact that I already have a license in 7-12 and that I've been a teacher for over 15 years (with a great record) to see if that could do anything for me. Hell no! They actually wanted me to take courses in history, civics, and geography along with "technology courses." Like I'll use technology as you guys know my hatred of alleged "progress." Umm, grades 4-9 ARE BELOW ME RIGHT NOW! That's like asking a calculus teacher to take 7 classes so he/she could teach addition and subtraction. God these people are slimey. I even played along a little, asking if I could take some kind of "competency" test to see if I knew the material in grades 4-9. Another hell no. For the love of God, I've taught AP classes to seniors and worked on papers published in magazines when I was in college. I graduated with a 3.8ish. I think I know the capital of Ohio is Columbus.

Well, today I got word back from Akron and Kent State to see if they could cut me some slack in a last ditch effort. Another hell no. The state schools are pretty uniform on this front. The funniest part is the fact they KNOW you have to take these courses either in the summer (more expensive) or one or two at a time ( full load is 12 hours which can't be done in the traditional school year for someone with the EXACT work schedule as college) which is also expensive. So, I said to hell with all of it. I even said it to some lady on the phone from Kent State and hung up on her. My wife yelled at me. I'm usually just an ass**** to people I know, but this got me fired up.

The lesson: AVOID COLLEGE. If you have to go, get some liberal arts degree that requires the LEAST work possible and get yourself an internship and a few "respectable" references. Believe me, it is good enough to do a bullcrap job pushing papers across some desk. No wonder I spent a good deal of my teaching during the 90s helping kids with financial aid for college. I needed an outlet to help them "get one over" on the system. Nothing feels better than "bending" the rules to help a kid get a few $ off of college.

I should have skipped "higher education." When I was in college, I always wished I could have just gone to Alaska, taken up fishing, smoked pot, and relaxed to the tunes of Dylan and Neil Young all day long. Man was I right back then. It's too late for me...young people...SAVE YOURSELVES!! :goof:
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Old 09-20-2005, 04:40 PM   #2
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Yeah, because who wants all of this:

-Last time in your life to be completely surrounded by people your age.

-Catholic High School girls now out from under the protective shield of their parents.

-Fake ID's aplenty.

-Foam parties.

-Cheap liquor.

-Taco Bell runs at 3 a.m.

-the runs from Taco Bell at 5:30 a.m.

-tailgating at football games.

-Football games.

-Sorority girls.

-Getting to bed at 6 in the morning, skipping class and sleeping until 2 p.m.

-Monday-Thursday Bar specials.

-the walk of shame.

-Sorority jello wrestling.

-Spring Break/Summer vacation.

-21st birthday parties.

-experimentation.

-no worries about the real world for 3 1/2 years.

And that's just off the top of my head. But yeah, if you want to avoid all of that, I'd strongly suggest not going to college.
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Old 09-20-2005, 04:44 PM   #3
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:lol::lol::lol:....

Twisted, my friend....tho twisted but true...

Sorry to hear you're gettin' the low hard one, Buckeye

It's a shame & a sham....

By the way, how did you hide the body count you've rolled up thru the years???
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Old 09-20-2005, 05:08 PM   #4
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I'm going to have to go with Noon on this one...or at least I hope so.

Now if only Pitt accepts my application...
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Old 09-20-2005, 06:04 PM   #5
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Attention all impressionable youngsters: Buckeye is running up against stupidy, incompetency, bureaucracy and greed, to be sure, and as usual he comes out of it with the most nihilistic conclusion/suggestion possible (mostly because he's rightfully hot right now).

Go to college. It's worth it whether it helps you towards the career of your choice or not (and really, Buckeye's words only apply if you want to be a teacher in the state of Ohio, and we do not have the luxury of a rebuttal from the state board of education or whatever).
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Old 09-20-2005, 11:06 PM   #6
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Sorry, this is long as hell.

A part of my laughs at Noon's list, but I can't help but be ticked off here. I would completely laugh along with everyone if I really didn't think this was a serious problem. It could be worse. I could be 18 again trying to get a degree. Let's focus on that. The b.s. today is much worse than yesteryear. 3 and a half years Noon? What kinda sheepskin did they give you? They don't let you out of there for a good 4 now, if you bust your ass. 5 seems to be the norm for a b.s. in whatever they CLAIM you need. The schools are set up to keep you there as long as possible. In the state of Ohio, if you take 12 hours a semester it is considered full-time. If you take more than 14 for some schools ( the classes generally run as 3 hours, so they get you there), your ass gets charged extra fees and the such. The idea is to get you to take smaller loads to increase the number of semesters you need overall. And paying for an entire semester is where the $ is. And let's talk about what they CLAIM you need. Never in my life have I seen more kids I taught get a degree then go into the workforce doing something TOTALLY UNRELATED to that degree (I taught at the same school for roughly a decade after returning from out west). People with political science degrees working as Rubbermaid regional managers, journalism majors working at banks, and my personal favorite: a kid I taught 7 years ago got a degree in history and is now a camera operator in Hollywood. WTF is going on here? You know why this occurs? It's because no one really cares what degree you get, just as long as you "pay your dues." That's why it's "for sale."

They would love to keep you there forever to pay these dues, but they can't.They can't keep you there too long because at age 24, you are considered an "adult" on your financial aid papers. That is when your aid goes strictly by your own income, not your folks or entire househould. Funny thing how that coincides with a traditional student just LEAVING college and losing out on the opportunity to get some help. Wow, what a coincidence huh? Too bad I was paying bills, putting food on my own table, and living on my own at 18. I guess that isn't "adult" enough. I kinda thought that was the meaning of "adult" though. As much fun as Noon's college years might have been, or anyone else on here for that matter, the situation varies. It especially does in today's world with the astronomical rise in tuition. I could go on forever here. I deal with it as a teacher. My recent favorite phenomenon is the "early college" idea where kids in high school can take a few college classes to get credit. Used as good public relations and a way to get some cash (remember... full-time is 12 hours... impossible for a high school student), I've watched the program develop into a monster. I don't recall the point when it became STRIKINGLY clear the program allowed students not ready to take those courses have a crack at them because it happened so quickly in a blaze of "goodwill and partnership." Cha-ching.

I miss being young, no doubt. I too enjoyed doing some of the things Noon listed. And yeah, I'm being a grumpy old man. Honestly though, we all can look back on it because those days are over ( I guess jhuerbin's are just starting). I don't miss working 50 hours a week while go to school with no health insurance though. And I had easy compared to others I knew. That was years ago. In today's world, that is the norm for many students. It is especially true in state schools with open enrollment (just need a high school diploma or GED to get in).

I don't know how anyone else here was really raised or what they had financially. While I freely admit this is out of outrage and me getting screwed over (my wife keeps telling me I don't even have a real job because I have no job skills so I should drop it...LOL), I must say working with kids in this area and watching these ploys add up every year it is clear we have reached a boiling point. I know you have to get screwed over to play, but I can honestly say they have taken it to a new level. I'm old and senile and will move on to complaining about low air pressure in my tires tomorrow, but God forbid I was 18 again. I'm only inconvenienced when it comes down to it with my deal. If we really value "education" or really want better things for the next generation, why is the bullsh** taking off like never before? What is this: if you can tolerate being totally taken advantage of and lied to for 5 years, you get to exist at a decent standard of living? Man I sound crazy, but I am beginning to wonder.

OK, time to find a new thread to bit** and moan in.
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Old 09-21-2005, 08:50 AM   #7
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Not only that 78, and i don't know if this is just around here, but even if you do get that degree, you aren't guaranteed anything. I never went to college, and now i have a pretty good job w/great pay, hours, vacation, the works. I have a friend who got his batchelors recently, he couldn't find any place to work and now he is working at a laborer for a construction company making just a little over minimum wage.
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Old 09-21-2005, 11:02 AM   #8
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Buckeye and Dublin Mike are right. Unless you want to be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, f*** college. In this world nowadays it's all about who you know, not what you know.

Disclaimer: I am a bitter and cynical 2003 college graduate.
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Old 09-21-2005, 12:39 PM   #9
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There are always exceptions Mike, but statistically, you cannot argue that on average, people that go to college make more money over their careers.
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Old 09-21-2005, 12:46 PM   #10
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Where I work, there's a program for recent college graduates where they work with a different department on a rotational basis every six months, pick the one the like the best, and begin working in that department on a managerial fast track.

In terms of the state using colleges to tried to bleed money out of you, that's true in some regards, but on the other hand, I only paid $200 per quarter (they do quarters instead of semesters at Ohio State, or they used to) for tuition/room and board total because I came from a low-income family....even though I sleepwalked my way to a 2.2 GPA in high school. The state more or less paid for this slacker to go to college (some loans, yes, but very low interest rates on said loans, and mostly it was grants).

The valedictorian of my school also went to Ohio State. She was not low income at all, but had no problems getting scads of scholarships to pay for everything and then some.

My point is a)at least at the undergrad level, you can essentially go to college for free if you are either poor enough or get good enough grades, and I have to assume that both financial aide and scholarships are available for graduate school as well, and b) I didn't graduate from college (see sleepwalking comment again), and I sure wish I had now. The college grads have it easier at my job, anyway.

Now here is where my cynicism comes in. Dropping out of college is probably the biggest regret of my life. I've always wanted to write...that's what I wanted to do with my life. But the stuff I write for SportsCentral is obviously raw and sloppy compared to someone who bothered to take four years to learn, really learn, how to write and write well. Instead I work a 9-to-5 job and I've more or less come to terms with the fact that I'm never going to earn a living writing. A big reason for that is because I didn't finish college.
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Old 09-21-2005, 01:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
There are always exceptions Mike, but statistically, you cannot argue that on average, people that go to college make more money over their careers.
That's probably the best argument on this issue.

A lot of people know people who did alright for themselves without college, but even with the flaws of college, most people are going to come out of college better off.

Quote:
People with political science degrees working as Rubbermaid regional managers, journalism majors working at banks, and my personal favorite: a kid I taught 7 years ago got a degree in history and is now a camera operator in Hollywood.
I think one of the biggest problems with college right now, with more and more people going, is that they don't do enough for students when they're leaving. I never once had a teacher in one of my journalism classes really point out the importance of an internship in the field. There was no assistance for that. Which seems silly because an internship would have been more valuable to me than anything I learned in a classroom.

I interviewed with this one really small newspaper in some small PA town three times. On the last time there I asked her what was keeping me from getting the job over the other candidates and she said point blank that they had experience in the field. This newspaper was essentially as low on the totem pole as you can go in the field of journalism.

The colleges should know these sorts of things and try to help students out. It shouldn't just be assumed. I lined up an internship the summer after my Junior year, they bailed on me because of budget cuts and I had nothing to fall back on.

When I was graduating, I had a job sealed up. They told me the position was waiting (which was actually an entry level high school sports position, so I was riding high for a couple of weeks). I wound up getting a 69.3% in one of my journalism courses. You need a 70% in your courses for your major at Penn State. Otherwise you need to retake them. That 1% kept me from graduating on time and kept me from finalizing that job.

Was it my fault for screwing up? Sure, but the thing is, the point of college is to prepare you for a job after college. Right? In this case, I had one, told this to the teacher, talked to people in the administration, but there was no room to budge on the 1%. What in the grand scheme of things did the 1% matter if college was to prepare me for a job and then they kept me from getting a job over details?

I don't know, it seems messed up. I mean, in the end, I could only blame myself, but it was just so disheartening I guess would be the word.

The places are machines. Sometimes that can be a good thing, sometimes it's a bad thing, but in the end it all goes back to Ricky's argument that on average someone is going to be better off having gone to college then yet.

Although, not getting the journalism job did kind of save me as I always wanted to pursue being a lawyer, but just never really wanted to pursue the work. I finished my journalism courses with an extreme dislike for the writing of journalism and simply didn't have a passion for covering the news. Maybe I should have typed this story in the fate thread????
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Old 09-21-2005, 01:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by KevinBeane
My point is a)at least at the undergrad level, you can essentially go to college for free if you are either poor enough or get good enough grades, and I have to assume that both financial aide and scholarships are available for graduate school as well, and b) I didn't graduate from college (see sleepwalking comment again), and I sure wish I had now. The college grads have it easier at my job, anyway.
An EXTREMELY broad generalization. Yeah, a valedictorian of a high school will go to any college they want for free. My fiance was valedictorian of his high school and also went to Ohio State. He made thousands of dollars to go to undergrad and graduate in 5 years with two Bachelor of Science degrees. Now he is in medical school, so yes, it was a very wise decision for him to go to college.

But when you're talking about just "getting good enough grades", it is NOT easy to go to college for free. I graduated high school with a 3.934 GPA, in the top 6% of my class, and had a very nice ACT score as well. My family's income would probably be considered in the upper half of middle class so we didn't qualify for any grants based on need. I went to Ohio State and was given a half tuition scholarship for my academics. Sure it helped, but my college education couldn't have been farther from "free", and I'm still paying for it over two years later and will be for a long time. There aren't many people who do better than I did in high school and I didn't get to go to school for free. There's a HUGE group of people in between the two groups you're talking about there, those who are poor enough to get aid and those who have top 1% grades/scores and get full scholarships. Huge. And for the people in that group, college won't always pay off, no matter WHAT they try to fill your head with.
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Old 09-21-2005, 02:10 PM   #13
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Mike...

That's true to an extent, a very small extent if you ask me. I think your pal is in the minority. My deal is this: if you graduate with a b.s. or even just an associates, are willing to move, have no kids, are willing to start off making only "ok" money, and put a little more $ into health care than you would like to at first, it is my opinion that the job market is at your fingertips. That was definitely true with Bubba in D.C. and is probably still pretty valid with Captain Idiot in the White House.

Does your buddy suffer from "I can't move from here" disease? Or how about the old lady? Is she on his back? House payments? Little Johnny need braces so I can't take any risks? These are huge traps. I still say this: a college degree of any kind makes it look like you are "professionally trained" and can push papers at Company X if all else fails. This had always been true to a degree, but it has now become a way of life because colleges are thought of as huge corporations and students are now "customers." And don't get me wrong, this has benefited students too. There is another side here, but just like with everything else Big Brother always gets the better of you in the end.

GREAT EXAMPLE: my brother works in career managment at the university of Akron and is a few months away from a masters in higher education something. I don't know the exact title of his paper-pushing job. He was looking over some stats one day and told me something astonishing. Do you know who is the #1 employer of all Wisconsin state university graduates combined? The answer: Enterprise Rental Car Company. You know, the people who make $30,000 a year that sign you out a car at the front desk and go around the vehicle with you to make sure there is no damage. This is hilarious in my opinion. Did all these people graduate with a degree in business? I don't think that's possible. Of course they didn't. They are the history majors, the biology majors, the "general studies" majors who "played ball" for 4-5 years and got a job that ain't that bad to start, provided you don't fall into those traps so quickly that I mentioned. And there is always room to move up the ladder at these joints (NEVER HAVE KIDS THOUGH !!!!....LOL)

KB...

OSU is still on quarters. And you are right about being low-income and going to a state school: it ain't that bad of a deal. Of course, in most cases you have to be REALLY poor to get all you need. You could just hide income or take up a major you have no interest in but provides the best departmental scholarships then switch it when you are done with your GERs (general ed. requirments). Not that I've ever advised any of my kids of that...cough ( )

You can still go back to school too Kevin. Night classs are an option. That kinda sucks for you because you actually wanted to do something that really did require the help of college, but you do have a good job as you stated. If I didn't have to work in a mill for 40 years I thought anything would be a good job when I was a kid. Still do. Like Amber said though, if you don't want to be a doctor or lawyer, most people consider it just "professional training." Thing is, it really isn't if you ask me. I played ball. My papers look good. In reality KB, I'm quite sure you have a much better understanding of the professional world than I do AND ALSO HAVE ACTUAL JOB SKILLS (anyone can be a psycho who stands in front of kids and recites history). I barely lasted two years working in the private sector before I went back to the warm confines of teaching. You're out there. Only difference is the fact I got a piece of paper and you don't. If I came to work at your company, I would have it easier like those other grads you mentioned. Probably make more $ than you too just because I could tolerate being robbed a little longer than you (actually finising school). How does that make any sense though?

None of it is based in logic. It's all based in "working the system." I just get tired of it from time to time.

Amber...

What kinda sheepskin did they give you? Not sure if you mentioned it before.

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Old 09-21-2005, 02:23 PM   #14
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Doug...

1% huh? Yep, your story right there sums it up. I've heard it before. Quick example again with my brother who is in career managment at Akron: Man needs a 3.3 GPA to qualify to do an internship in sociology. He has a 3.243 or something that close. My brother has to tell him he'll need special permission from the department. This guy's work experience: running for his life down the streets of Baghdad for 2 years in the U.S. Army. So .1 of a point didn't qualify him to get his "real world" experience. Department head says no. If I were that soldier, I'd stick a rifle up the ....you know what...of the suit who denied him.

Damn ham and eggers. No clue on reality. Let the machine grind on, like you said Doug.

Like I said before though Doug: decent grades, 3 references from the suits (just be "folksy" with some department heads), AND an internship or two. You messed up there. That's all it takes.

Amber...

Agreed the gap is big. That's why you do creative work when putting down your numbers.
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Old 09-21-2005, 02:25 PM   #15
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i also hate college. i dropped out twice from two different schools. it was more about me not knowing what i wanted to do then anything else. i think a lot kids have so much pressure on them by themselves, peers, high school, teachers, and parnets that they rush into decisions. many people should really take a year or two off and work before jumping back into school.

currently im working full time @ t-mobile [blackberry, pda support] and looking into getting a degree online
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