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Old 11-11-2006, 03:08 PM   #1
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Default Democrats and Iraq

With the economy doing well, the stock market doing well, and unemployment at an all-time low and the liberals with nothing to offer, decided to base this entire election on the anti-Iraq war theme. Then yesterday the Iraqi president says that leaders of the democratic party have assured him not to worry that there will be no quick withdrawal from Iraq by american troops because that would be a catastrophic mistake. What a freaking surprise. This means the democrats campaign was based on a lie, another freaking surprise.

Also yesterday an al-qaeda leader in Iraq releases a statement saying he is pleased that the democrats have taken control of congress and that Rumsfeld has resigned. He was not pleased because now there can be peace because as we all know terrorist will not stop as long as things exist that they disagree with because they are fanatics, we know he is not pleased because now we can have peace because in the same statement he says that they plan on blowing up the White House and that they have thousands of warriors ready for battle. So terrorist are pleased that democrats are in control of congress, hmmmmm..... maybe that should tell us something.
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:18 PM   #2
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This means the democrats campaign was based on a lie, another freaking surprise.
Or, uh, you don't understand what the democrats campaign was based on. Seriously, I'm so sick of Republicans trotting out this garbage about how the democrats purely want to just take the troops out of Iraq. The democrats won this election because they are talking about A CHANGE OF DIRECTION IN IRAQ. Not simply a pull out of troops.

Are there democrats who think we should pull the troops out right now? Yes. However, that has never been a campaign base for the democrats. There are a lot of democrats who want to find out what changes can be made in Iraq to fight the war differently and potentially salvage the situation. The democrats won the election points on Iraq because they are offering various opinions on the matter while the Republicans continued to trot out the stay the course logic.

Don't say the democrats based their campaign on a lie when it is clear you have no clue what the democrats based their campaign on.
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:24 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Doug Graham View Post
Or, uh, you don't understand what the democrats campaign was based on. Seriously, I'm so sick of Republicans trotting out this garbage about how the democrats purely want to just take the troops out of Iraq. The democrats won this election because they are talking about A CHANGE OF DIRECTION IN IRAQ. Not simply a pull out of troops.

Are there democrats who think we should pull the troops out right now? Yes. However, that has never been a campaign base for the democrats. There are a lot of democrats who want to find out what changes can be made in Iraq to fight the war differently and potentially salvage the situation. The democrats won the election points on Iraq because they are offering various opinions on the matter while the Republicans continued to trot out the stay the course logic.

Don't say the democrats based their campaign on a lie when it is clear you have no clue what the democrats based their campaign on.
The whole democratic campaign was based on an EXIT plan for our troops in Iraq not a different way of fighting in Iraq and now they are saying they have no plan to exit Iraq, sorry Doug but that is called a lie. You might want to do a little research on what the democrats were saying in this election. Are you going to comment on any of the other things I stated or just like a liberal are you going to avoid those things?
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:53 PM   #4
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No, the Democratic platform was based on a change of direction in Iraq not an 'if you elect me the troops will be home for Christmas' campaign. Democrats campaigned on the notion that a fresh perspective on Iraq is needed and that the Bush Administration has no clue on how to expidite a withdrawal from Iraq. They seized on the fact that the populous as a whole is increasingly dissatisfied with the way the GOP led government is handling the war.

The Democratic platform was also steeped heavily in reducing corruption in D. C. The GOP's family values ethos blew up in its face this past year with all of the corruption and ethics scandals party members have been involved in. If you want to talk about who has been selling the American voter a bunch of lies lets talk about what the Bush Administration and the Republican Party in general has tried to convince the American Public of over the past six years.

Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq? Has there been a bigger lie told to the world since Bush came into office? Don't write such nonsense about Democrats lying to America when all politicians are adept at telling us what we want to hear to get elected. Neither party is any more truthful than the other. The Republicans have just been worse at covering theiry tracks in the past few years than the Dems have.
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:59 PM   #5
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An exit strategy and immediate troop withdrawal are completely different things. You realize that an exit strategy might take 2 years? Might take a year? Might take 4? Huge difference between the two of them. There are levels of discussion about how democrats want to handle the exit strategy, and determinations will have to be made on whether something can be salvaged in terms of leaving Iraq a better place than when we entered. Exit strategy does not mean leave right away, is the part you're mixing. Second from this, I do believe the Democrats ran based on change of direction. I think I've followed this election enough and believe democrats offered a lot of different voices on the matter. They talked a lot of being able to have oversight into how things are conducted in the war and that they won't reduce funding for troops. How is taking a new look at things the same as cutting and running? I think you heard the Republican responses to democratic election campaigns and not what democrats actually said.

The other things you said? You mean, this...

Quote:
Also yesterday an al-qaeda leader in Iraq releases a statement saying he is pleased that the democrats have taken control of congress and that Rumsfeld has resigned. He was not pleased because now there can be peace because as we all know terrorist will not stop as long as things exist that they disagree with because they are fanatics, we know he is not pleased because now we can have peace because in the same statement he says that they plan on blowing up the White House and that they have thousands of warriors ready for battle. So terrorist are pleased that democrats are in control of congress, hmmmmm..... maybe that should tell us something.
I think terrorists, uh, talk just for the sake of talking and reading a lot into their talk is a bit silly. Of course they are going to take credit for Rumsfeld being outted and the democrats taking power. Of course they are going to try and rally momentum to their side via propaganda. At bare minimum it was a change, why would they NOT take credit for it? If you want to read more into it than what is actually there, and clearly you're doing so with that last line of "So terrorist are pleased that democrats are in control of congress, hmmmmm..... maybe that should tell us something." then that is your own mistake.
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Old 11-11-2006, 04:52 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by doublee View Post
No, the Democratic platform was based on a change of direction in Iraq not an 'if you elect me the troops will be home for Christmas' campaign. Democrats campaigned on the notion that a fresh perspective on Iraq is needed and that the Bush Administration has no clue on how to expidite a withdrawal from Iraq. They seized on the fact that the populous as a whole is increasingly dissatisfied with the way the GOP led government is handling the war.

The Democratic platform was also steeped heavily in reducing corruption in D. C. The GOP's family values ethos blew up in its face this past year with all of the corruption and ethics scandals party members have been involved in. If you want to talk about who has been selling the American voter a bunch of lies lets talk about what the Bush Administration and the Republican Party in general has tried to convince the American Public of over the past six years.

Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq? Has there been a bigger lie told to the world since Bush came into office? Don't write such nonsense about Democrats lying to America when all politicians are adept at telling us what we want to hear to get elected. Neither party is any more truthful than the other. The Republicans have just been worse at covering theiry tracks in the past few years than the Dems have.
That so-called fresh perspective was supposed to include a plan for withdrawal according to the democrats. You say the Bush administration has no clue how to expidite a withdrawal fron Iraq, that is part of the point I am making, THE DEMOCRATS DON"T EITHER yet it was a major part of their campaign. You can't predict the future and come up with an empty withdrawal plan, that is why Bush says we have to stay the course because we don't know what will happen in the future. It does not matter if the withdrawal plan is set for 10 days or 10 years, until you can predict the future it is stupid to try and set any kind of date for this type of thing, once again that is why you have to stay the course and try and get the job done not make empty promises.

As far as your lies theory, I do believe that the Bush administration has said that they made a mistake and that they have not found weapons of mass destruction. That would be called a mistake not a lie. Now if they said they found these weapons but did not then that would be a lie. So saying that there has been no bigger lie than this is simply incorrect. On a side note don't you think it is still a good thing that Hussein is out of power. He supported terrorist and killed thousands if not millions of his own people. So I'm sorry that the precious weapons of mass destruction were not found but a murdering tyrant and his son's who supported terrorism are out of power and they are having free elections in Iraq now, that is good enough reason for me. Also at one time there might have been WMD there but like I said the Bush administration did not lie they said they have found none.
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:19 PM   #7
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Doug, it does not matter if the exit plan is set for days or years, you can't set a date on war. I did say a quick withdrawal but any date would be a quick one if your main concern is getting out not finishing the job. That is what the Iraqi leader is worried about IMO. Any date that the democrats set is an empty date. So I am not mixing up anything when I never said if the democrats plan (which apparantly does not exist) was set for any date. I never did say that the democrats promised a certain date I said that they were campaigning on exiting Irag (which is a main part of there new direction in Iraq) and that the republicans have no such plan when the democrats do not either. That is what I am calling a lie. And believe me I am not saying that republicans are always honest either, I was commenting on how the democrats based most of their campaign on a lie. I am sure there are some democrats who are more supportive of the war in Iraq but I think most democrats were campaigning on getting out of Iraq which was the main point of there new direction for the war so that is what I was addressing. I can't go over every single democrat in office I can just go over the majority.

Any group that has crashed plans into our buildings is not going to be taken silly by me. Even though a lot of liberals seem to think so I think that terrorist threats are very real and should not be taken as silly or have the mind set that it won't happen to us when it already has. I also never said that terrorist were taking credit for Rumsfeld resigning or for the democrats taking control of congress, all I said was that they were pleased by it. So try not to put words in my mouth to support your arguement

How is saying that the terrorist are pleased with these things reading to much into it? IT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID! That's not reading into anything it is called quoting. Try and understand this before you say someone is mistaken, big difference between reading into something and an actual quote. You are trying to make something different out of what was actually said, there is your mistake.
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:09 PM   #8
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On your first point, I don't think you've really made a point on the democrats lying. If you believe them to be lying about the campaign goals, I simply find that to be silly. I just don't think you've paid attention to what democrats have said and instead rely on what Republicans say back about democrats.

Aside from that, you have to silly notion that an exit strategy is throwing your hands up and not giving a damn about winning the war.

Is it possible that the democrats might leave Iraq without winning the War? The chances are the same as they were with the Republicans in office. However, the difference is that with the democrats taking office, you give yourself some opportunity to salvage the war, whereas if you were to follow the course we have been going with in Iraq, you continue to stay stuck in the mud. Chances of victory certainly are not diminished by the democrats being in power or desiring an exit strategy.

This thing has gone to crap the past couple of years because the lack of planning on the Bush administration's behalf to win the war after storming Baghdad. Changes were needed to be made. Now, the country is going to start looking at ways that things can be done over there. First you have to define what you consider victory. I think the Bush administration rolled in with this lofty goal of giving Independance and opportunity to the people of Iraq and in the past few years, that has slipped away and you run the risk of leaving that country worse than when you entered it. Something had to be changed.

I don't think the democrats campaigned on setting a date to exit Iraq. If they did, then I would agree with you that any date set by them is hollow. I don't think that is what they campaigned on, however.

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Any group that has crashed plans into our buildings is not going to be taken silly by me. Even though a lot of liberals seem to think so I think that terrorist threats are very real and should not be taken as silly or have the mind set that it won't happen to us when it already has. I also never said that terrorist were taking credit for Rumsfeld resigning or for the democrats taking control of congress, all I said was that they were pleased by it. So try not to put words in my mouth to support your arguement
No one is saying to not take the terrorists seriously, so, uh, don't toss words into my mouth to try to support your argument. Seriously, painting this as a "oh liberals don't think this threat is real" is just silly and counterproductive.

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Doug, it does not matter if the exit plan is set for days or years, you can't set a date on war. I did say a quick withdrawal but any date would be a quick one if your main concern is getting out not finishing the job. That is what the Iraqi leader is worried about IMO. Any date that the democrats set is an empty date. So I am not mixing up anything when I never said if the democrats plan (which apparantly does not exist) was set for any date. I never did say that the democrats promised a certain date I said that they were campaigning on exiting Irag (which is a main part of there new direction in Iraq) and that the republicans have no such plan when the democrats do not either. That is what I am calling a lie. And believe me I am not saying that republicans are always honest either, I was commenting on how the democrats based most of their campaign on a lie. I am sure there are some democrats who are more supportive of the war in Iraq but I think most democrats were campaigning on getting out of Iraq which was the main point of there new direction for the war so that is what I was addressing. I can't go over every single democrat in office I can just go over the majority.

Any group that has crashed plans into our buildings is not going to be taken silly by me. Even though a lot of liberals seem to think so I think that terrorist threats are very real and should not be taken as silly or have the mind set that it won't happen to us when it already has. I also never said that terrorist were taking credit for Rumsfeld resigning or for the democrats taking control of congress, all I said was that they were pleased by it. So try not to put words in my mouth to support your arguement

How is saying that the terrorist are pleased with these things reading to much into it? IT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID! That's not reading into anything it is called quoting. Try and understand this before you say someone is mistaken, big difference between reading into something and an actual quote. You are trying to make something different out of what was actually said, there is your mistake.
You know, what, look, I understand the difference between reading into something and quoting. I understand that you were quoting, what I was getting at was the WHY part of the quoting. Look, you backed yourself into a corner and rather than argue your way out, you just want to say that I didn't understand something and I made a mistake, fine. I really don't care. The reality is that the terrorists are going to always TALK. And always try to distribute their propoganda upon others. By quoting it anywhere as you did is definitely reading too much into it.

Let me put it this way...do you think it MATTERS what the terrorists say post-election? Any of those things you quoted. Do you think any of them MATTER? If you do, then I stand by my statement that you are reading too much into those things. If you think they are irrelevant chatter, as I take them to be, than I don't know why you even bother to quote them.

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Old 11-11-2006, 07:21 PM   #9
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Doug, what are you talking about. I have backed myself into a corner? You are really not paying attention.

If the democrats said that a new direction is needed in Iraq and that they would be better for our country because the republicans don't have an exit plan when all along they did not either than that would be a lie. At least an indirect lie. Accusing someone of something like not having a plan when you yourself do not is not only a form of a lie it's deceitful. What do you not understanding about this?

Throwing your hands up and giving up is what I'm worried about, and being so obsessed with exit plans should be a little hint that getting out is of more importance then winning to the democrats. Yes there is a chance with either party of getting out of Iraq without winning, it is just a much more likely scenario with the democrats IMO. Every since this began Bush has been concerned with liberals and them thinking this war would be easy and if not then we should get out, that is why he has harped so much on staying the course.

My idea of victory would be for Iraq to be able to sustain order on it's own. There is no way that things will be perfect there but that goes for any country. Iraq now has free elections and many terrorist have been captured. We just need to get Iraq strong enough and trained to be able to battle terrorist on their own, which takes time and sacrifice, something that liberals really struggle with. If you disagree with this than why are the democrats the one's who are so obsessed with an exit plan. People die in wars. Progress has been made in Iraq just not as easily and quickly as liberals like.

You obviously have not listened to enough debates or campaigning by the democrats. Almost everyone one of the debates and talks by democrats have included the fact that republicans don't have an exit plan and that things will be different with democrats. Time to stop pulling the wool over your head Doug and pay attention to things if you are going to try and argue them.

You said reading to much into a terrorist statement is silly, you said that not me. They threatened to blow up the White House Doug and they leveled the WTC already. I assume that is what you were talking about when you said it was silly because the other point you made about them taking credit for the dems taking control of congress and Rumsfeld resigning was false. I never said that, you tried to put words in my mouth and I called you on it, that is backing myself into a corner? I wasn't putting words in your mouth I was responding to what you said.

The terrorist made a statement and I took it for what they said, you are the one reading something else into it. If republicans had kept congress I am sure terrorist would not be so pleased and if you say that you disagree with that then you are not being honest, if you truly believe that than you are not being honest with yourself. You might want to look over your shoulder Doug, I think you might actually see the corner of the room right behind you. Vague comments and inaccurate statements on your part put you there. You might also want to remember that these are for the most part just our opinions so little comments like being backed into a corner are actually the silly and counterproductive things. So try and remember that we are adults and not little kids fighting on a playground. So I will apologize now for returning the backed into the corner comment to you and for any other comments I have made that may have offended you or anybody else. I will try to do my part to remember that a lot of this is just opinions and I will try to respect yours and keep it civil.
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Old 11-11-2006, 08:11 PM   #10
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If the democrats said that a new direction is needed in Iraq and that they would be better for our country because the republicans don't have an exit plan when all along they did not either than that would be a lie. At least an indirect lie. Accusing someone of something like not having a plan when you yourself do not is not only a form of a lie it's deceitful. What do you not understanding about this?
I don't think the democrats ever said they had an exit plan, though. That is the point that you missed.

Quote:
Throwing your hands up and giving up is what I'm worried about, and being so obsessed with exit plans should be a little hint that getting out is of more importance then winning to the democrats. Yes there is a chance with either party of getting out of Iraq without winning, it is just a much more likely scenario with the democrats IMO. Every since this began Bush has been concerned with liberals and them thinking this war would be easy and if not then we should get out, that is why he has harped so much on staying the course.
Getting out is certainly of importance to democrats if they feel that the war can't be salvaged, but I mean, that's not exactly a novel concept. There is a vast distance between reaching that point and throwing your hands up and giving up. You seem to want to equate the two, and that is not a rationale thing to do.

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My idea of victory would be for Iraq to be able to sustain order on it's own. There is no way that things will be perfect there but that goes for any country. Iraq now has free elections and many terrorist have been captured. We just need to get Iraq strong enough and trained to be able to battle terrorist on their own, which takes time and sacrifice, something that liberals really struggle with. If you disagree with this than why are the democrats the one's who are so obsessed with an exit plan. People die in wars. Progress has been made in Iraq just not as easily and quickly as liberals like.
It's not that liberals are really struggling with the concept. I have the same idea of victory and democrats would want that as well. It's just that the sides have different ways of wanting to go about that. The United States military is not designed to be a country stabilizing force. We are a very good military, probably the best in the world, we just do not do certain things. We have a military trained for certain aspects trying to do something they were not trained to do. If we don't recognize this and don't change course from this, then victory may never be attainable. Like I said before, staying on the current direction, we were not headed towards stabilizing Iraq, so why have Americans die if we're not working towards that goal?

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You obviously have not listened to enough debates or campaigning by the democrats. Almost everyone one of the debates and talks by democrats have included the fact that republicans don't have an exit plan and that things will be different with democrats. Time to stop pulling the wool over your head Doug and pay attention to things if you are going to try and argue them.
I simply disagree on this. Not sure what else to say. I believe I paid attention during the campaign. Just look at your statement, "Almost everyone one of the debates and talks by democrats have included the fact that republicans don't have an exit plan and that things will be different with democrats". This is not to say that the democrats will directly withdraw troops. Which was your original statement..."there will be no quick withdrawal from Iraq by american troops because that would be a catastrophic mistake. What a freaking surprise. This means the democrats campaign was based on a lie,"

Your original statement was that if there was no quick withdrawal, democrats based their campaigns on a lie. You have backed off of that since then.

Quote:
You said reading to much into a terrorist statement is silly, you said that not me. They threatened to blow up the White House Doug and they leveled the WTC already. I assume that is what you were talking about when you said it was silly because the other point you made about them taking credit for the dems taking control of congress and Rumsfeld resigning was false.
It is silly to read too much into a terrorist statement. It is silly to take a terrorist statement, designed at propaganda and serving as a rallying cry, at face value. I have no idea why you did it, no idea why you would want to do it. It just makes no sense. It's like when Jim Tressel said the Buckeyes have the best damn band in the land. Do they? Maybe, but more importantly, does it even matter?

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The terrorist made a statement and I took it for what they said
Therein lies your problem. Like I said, terrorists run their mouths. This is not exactly a new phenomenom.

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If republicans had kept congress I am sure terrorist would not be so pleased and if you say that you disagree with that then you are not being honest, if you truly believe that than you are not being honest with yourself.
Uh, before the elections, terrorists were saying that they were winning the war and wanted to blow stuff up...so, uh, where exactly have things changed from the point of what they say publicly?

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You might also want to remember that these are for the most part just our opinions so little comments like being backed into a corner are actually the silly and counterproductive things.
I know they are our opinions, I just wanted to make it clear that I don't think you're doing a good job defending what you originally said. Rather than defending what you originally said, you casually side step it while still trying to make yourself look right. Counterproductive of me to call you on it, sure, maybe.

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for any other comments I have made that may have offended you
I don't think there is a chance in the world that you could offend me. I'm not trying to offend you either, I'm just trying to point out where I think your argument is flawed.
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Old 11-11-2006, 09:55 PM   #11
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The democrats harped on how the republicans do not have an exit plan, but not having one of their own is okay? Like I said to me this is deceitful which according to the dictionary is a form of a lie.

Like we have both now stated these are mainly opinions, I feel the democrats outlook is one of giving up.

Once again opinion, I feel that americans have died defending freedom as well as fighting terrorism so to me they have not died in vain and things will get better if we stick with it. We just differ in opinion I guess.

I have not backed off from anything, as matter of fact a couple post ago I said that I think setting any date at this point would be going to quick and would be jumping the gun. I think it screws up our priorities at this point. I am not sure how I have backed off saying that the democrats ran on a lie either, that has still been one of my main points so I'm not sure what your saying there about me backing off when that is what I having been talking about.

I don't consider a terrorist saying that they want to blow up the White House as propaganda, like I said before they leveled the WTC. As far as them being pleased that the democrats have taken control of congress that is not propaganda that is simply fact. Republicans generally believe in small government and a large and strong military while democrats have generally believed in large government had have made cut-backs to the military and more republicans then democrats have supported the war so of course they are pleased. This is just common sense IMO.

As far as terrorist saying that they are winning the war and wanting to blow stuff up, well that will always be the case. I just feel that republicans generally want to fight these people and there way of thinking more than democrats.

Like I said before I have not side stepped or backed off of anything. It seems you say things like that out of nowhere to try and help your arguement. You seem to make things up and then say you called me on it. To me this is very counterproductive.

Well, I guess we agree that we think the others arguement is flawed. I am glad to know that I have not offended you and I am not offended either. I think we are trying to convince each other that we are wrong so that could be impossible since I think we both feel strongly about our view, but thanks for debating with me.
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Old 11-12-2006, 09:50 AM   #12
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The unemployment rate being low doesn't mean anything because the real issue is the quality of jobs available, not the quantity of them; otherwise, why did the Republicans get slaughtered in Pennsylvania and Ohio, where in just those two states they lost two Senate seats and five House seats?

As for all the "cut and run" rhetoric, it's only "cut and run" if we leave without reaching a lasting political solution. Fortunately, however, such a solution is readily attainable: Iraq needs to be partitioned into a Kurdistan in the north, with a "Sunnistan" being carved out of the central third and a "Shiastan" in the south.

There people have been hating each other and killing each other for 1,300 years; to expect them to stop now just because a few idealistic dreamers think it would be a good idea is just plain naive and just plain dumb.

And since the neocons have declared partitioning Iraq a non-starter, the Democrats have to get behind it.
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Old 11-12-2006, 12:16 PM   #13
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Whoa here. Create 3 States out of Iraq? That would be interesting, and an invitation for continued bloodshed in the area. That is not a solution, unless you want to station US troops there permanently.
By the way, I love the new DNC buzz-word -- Neocon. I guess the memo says to use it as often as possible.
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Old 11-12-2006, 08:12 PM   #14
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http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...src=rss&rpc=22

If Bush doesn't stand firm now, his presidency will be remembered by all as an utter disgrace, and the world will pay for it.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:08 AM   #15
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With the economy doing well, the stock market doing well, and unemployment at an all-time low and the liberals with nothing to offer, decided to base this entire election on the anti-Iraq war theme.
The economy is doing well for the wealthiest Americans, but the middle class is being squeezed and the low-level workers can't survive on minimum wage. I'll give you the employment point, but the democrats do have a lot to offer, namely a Congress that won't give Bush free power and will truly bring back checks and balances.

It's dangerous when one party has so much control. The Republicans screwed up in every way possible through their scandals, one after another. It is time for a change, and even many Republicans admit this. Bottom line: voting Democrat, as so many did, was a statement by America saying they aren't happy about Iraq and want changes. This election was about Iraq and the scandal-plagued administration, no doubt.

This is a new generation of democrats, a more moderate one. Karl Rove led the Bush administration so far left that it backfired. Now his only support comes from ... I hate to say it ... the south. Man, I need to relocate to a blue state after undergrad.

Here's my stance on Iraq. I am in favor of gradual withdrawl of troops. We are there and not winning and there isn't any light at the end of the tunnel. What's happened is we have driven out everyone except the extremists who are fighting a civil war. The innocent citizens and non-violent have either been killed or fled. This fantasy about giving Iraq back to them is misguided. All we're doing is standing in the middle of two groups fighting each other. And you don't honor those who have given their lives in Iraq by letting more brave soldiers die. Our presence is creating more hatred for our country. It's really a lose-lose situation by staying.
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